The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok

May I ask those who knows this "Deer Lodge Gang" case/theorie well;


What about the 3 confirmed "Bates had to die" Zodiac letters sent in April 30 1967?


How could any of those 3 from the "Deer Lodge Gang" have written/sent those?

Sorry if this has already been covered.

Seagull wrote:

LOL Tahoe! The border crossing document says his mothers name is Geneva Valentine and she lived in El Monte CA. This document was made when LE captured Dryman in Canada and brought him back to Montana for trial.

Good stuff Seagull!

I beleive that Geneva Valentine must have been the Aunt he lived with in Southern California prior to commiting the murder of Pellett.

Seems like he didn't want much association with his parents!

Theforeigner wrote:

May I ask those who knows this "Deer Lodge Gang" case/theorie well;


What about the 3 confirmed "Bates had to die" Zodiac letters sent in April 30 1967?


How could any of those 3 from the "Deer Lodge Gang" have written/sent those?

Sorry if this has already been covered.

I have never been too convinced they were from Zodiac.

As many know, I have questioned LB. I have also questioned the Halloween Card. The HC card is very Dryman-ish. So to me, someone else could have stepped in and did some copy-cattin'. lol

tahoe27 wrote:

.. The HC card is very Dryman-ish. So to me, someone else could have stepped in and did some copy-cattin'. lol

Or- someone else tried to blame Dryman.

-Nin

bentley wrote:

The Akronite doesn't know when Richard left jail. "In Montana, killing a police officer is not punished as severly as it is here. Probably Richard only served about 38 years".

Does that say 38, or 3-8, or is supposed to say 3-8? If he meant 38, he couldn't be talking about Bujok.

In any case, if SFPD was investigating his claim, shouldn't have been too hard to find Deer Lodge inmates who had killed Montana LE officers.

The years may be a typo, bentley. And regarding LE, I agree.

-Nin

bentley wrote:

..Edwards fails to mention that Richard (he is referring to Bujok, right?) actually went by the name ZODIAC when he tipped off police. I guess he didn't feel that was of importance...

Edwards may have actually forgotten what he said back then and what not, since he wrote the letter somewhen between end of last year and beginning of this year. Could be an interesting slip though.. Thanks for pointing it out, bentley.

I assume that LE did not share everything with the newspaper and advised Ed what to say and what not to say as it as an ongoing investigation. That would also explain the name "Richard" (besides the "snitch" reason)being used and not Lee or Robert, if Ed was talking about Bujok.

Again, could all be "part of the game" on Edward's side to put blame on Dryman and now Bujok. Things may not always be the way they look.

-Nin

Nin wrote:

bentley wrote:

The Akronite doesn't know when Richard left jail. "In Montana, killing a police officer is not punished as severly as it is here. Probably Richard only served about 38 years".

Does that say 38, or 3-8, or is supposed to say 3-8? If he meant 38, he couldn't be talking about Bujok.

In any case, if SFPD was investigating his claim, shouldn't have been too hard to find Deer Lodge inmates who had killed Montana LE officers.

The years may be a typo, bentley. And regarding LE, I agree.

-Nin

The copy IS hard to read. It could say 18 which is how many years Dryman was in prison. April 1951 to Jan. 1969.

Seagull wrote:

..

The copy IS hard to read. It could say 18 which is how many years Dryman was in prison. April 1951 to Jan. 1969.

I think it says 18, just because the "only" would otherwise make no sense. "Only" 38 years does not make sense. There is no dash in between to make it look like 3-8 in my view.

-Nin

tahoe27 wrote:

Theforeigner wrote:

May I ask those who knows this "Deer Lodge Gang" case/theorie well;


What about the 3 confirmed "Bates had to die" Zodiac letters sent in April 30 1967?


How could any of those 3 from the "Deer Lodge Gang" have written/sent those?

Sorry if this has already been covered.

I have never been too convinced they were from Zodiac.

As many know, I have questioned LB. I have also questioned the Halloween Card. The HC card is very Dryman-ish. So to me, someone else could have stepped in and did some copy-cattin'. lol

So if Dryman was Zodiac, then LH wasn't the work of Zodiac, CJB wasn't Zodiac, the Bates letters weren't Zodiac, and now we hear that the HC wasn't the work of Zodiac and LB wasn't Zodiac. That means that the Zodiac was responsible for BRS and Stine's murder. At this rate, it won't be long before the Zodiac wasn't the Zodiac

rand wrote:

tahoe27 wrote:

Theforeigner wrote:

May I ask those who knows this "Deer Lodge Gang" case/theorie well;


What about the 3 confirmed "Bates had to die" Zodiac letters sent in April 30 1967?


How could any of those 3 from the "Deer Lodge Gang" have written/sent those?

Sorry if this has already been covered.

I have never been too convinced they were from Zodiac.

As many know, I have questioned LB. I have also questioned the Halloween Card. The HC card is very Dryman-ish. So to me, someone else could have stepped in and did some copy-cattin'. lol

So if Dryman was Zodiac, then LH wasn't the work of Zodiac, CJB wasn't Zodiac, the Bates letters weren't Zodiac, and now we hear that the HC wasn't the work of Zodiac and LB wasn't Zodiac. Soon the Zodiac won't be the Zodiac

I agree, that scenario almost tales Z out of the entire equation

Yes, it leaves BRS and PH as Z crimes. And we have some who believe that fingerprints don't rule out POIs; and DNA doesn't rule out POIs. Where does it all end? Nowhere, I suppose. Like George Harrison sang: If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.

Am I right in thinking that the Zodiac cross-hairs didn't appear in correspondence until after LB? In which case (if it wasn't the same person), the letter writer was the copy-cat rather than the murderer?

The crosshair symbol first appeared in the August 1969 letter. This is when the killer first called himself Zodiac, the newspapers had dubbed him The Code Killer. He signed the August letter with the crosshair symbol and wrote No Address underneath.

Seagull wrote:

The crosshair symbol first appeared in the August 1969 letter. This is when the killer first called himself Zodiac, the newspapers had dubbed him The Code Killer. He signed the August letter with the crosshair symbol and wrote No Address underneath.

No, Seagull. The crosshair appeared on the very first Zodiac letters delivered to three newspapers with the cipher on July 31, 1969. The Killer did not call himself the Zodiac at that time. He began to call himself the Zodiac in the August 1969 letter. This is very important, IMO. He signed his letters with a crosshair PRIOR to calling himself the Zodiac.

Here is the crosshair symbol on one of the July 31, 1969 letters. http://www.zodiackiller.com/VTHLetter2.html

Your absolutely right, Nin. I had totally forgotten about that.

I don't mind being mistaken for NIN -- it's a step up for me

rand wrote:

..

So if Dryman was Zodiac..

Just in theory, right?

-Nin

rand wrote:

I don't mind being mistaken for NIN -- it's a step up for me

For me it's a kick in the head..

-Nin

rand wrote:

..The crosshair appeared on the very first Zodiac letters delivered to three newspapers with the cipher on July 31, 1969. The Killer did not call himself the Zodiac at that time. He began to call himself the Zodiac in the August 1969 letter. This is very important, IMO. He signed his letters with a crosshair PRIOR to calling himself the Zodiac.

..

I totally agree, rand. That is one of the reasons I always wondered why when the killer called the murders in via phone booth, he never identified himself as THE Zodiac. While I understand he may have enjoyed the sh...... faces of police officers when discovering the message on the car door at LB, I still have the gut feeling the name wasn't as important to him as the crosshair symbol. Next.

-Nin

I really need to quit multi-tasking

Seagull wrote:

Nin wrote:

bentley wrote:

The Akronite doesn't know when Richard left jail. "In Montana, killing a police officer is not punished as severly as it is here. Probably Richard only served about 38 years".

Does that say 38, or 3-8, or is supposed to say 3-8? If he meant 38, he couldn't be talking about Bujok.

In any case, if SFPD was investigating his claim, shouldn't have been too hard to find Deer Lodge inmates who had killed Montana LE officers.

The years may be a typo, bentley. And regarding LE, I agree.

-Nin

The copy IS hard to read. It could say 18 which is how many years Dryman was in prison. April 1951 to Jan. 1969.

Maybe it does say 18. "About 18 years"? That's like saying "I'll be over in about 18 minutes". Why not 20?

Dryman's sentence wasn't for cop killing I don't think.

Nin wrote:

That is one of the reasons I always wondered why when the killer called the murders in via phone booth, he never identified himself as THE Zodiac. While I understand he may have enjoyed the sh...... faces of police officers when discovering the message on the car door at LB, I still have the gut feeling the name wasn't as important to him as the crosshair symbol. Next.

-Nin

Very insightful...tellingly so.

Could very well be. I do think he needed the Z identity for public communication. After the first round of letters he might have felt, rightly so, that he couldn't go on referring to himself as "I am the killer of..." to the Bay Area at large.

bentley wrote:

Could very well be. I do think he needed the Z identity for public communication. After the first round of letters he might have felt, rightly so, that he couldn't go on referring to himself as "I am the killer of..." to the Bay Area at large.

Sort of like "Prince" (the musician) being a symbol. It just doesn't work.

I think too he wasn't fond of "cipher slayer".

bentley wrote:

Seagull wrote:

Nin wrote:

bentley wrote:

The Akronite doesn't know when Richard left jail. "In Montana, killing a police officer is not punished as severly as it is here. Probably Richard only served about 38 years".

Does that say 38, or 3-8, or is supposed to say 3-8? If he meant 38, he couldn't be talking about Bujok.

In any case, if SFPD was investigating his claim, shouldn't have been too hard to find Deer Lodge inmates who had killed Montana LE officers.

The years may be a typo, bentley. And regarding LE, I agree.

-Nin

The copy IS hard to read. It could say 18 which is how many years Dryman was in prison. April 1951 to Jan. 1969.

Maybe it does say 18. "About 18 years"? That's like saying "I'll be over in about 18 minutes". Why not 20?

Dryman's sentence wasn't for cop killing I don't think.

Correct. Bujok was the cop killer (under-sheriff). Dryman killed a cafe owner. From the date of the final trial and final sentencing, Dryman spent just under 14 years in prison (Deer Lodge).