"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER

I am STILL WAITING for the envelope for this 12/16/69 Fairfield letter.

I did find in the FBI files where the examiner wrote down what was on the envelope. I don't think this is an actual copy of the writing on the envelope, but the examiner writing it down.

Still, until we can get the real thing, it is worth taking a look at.

Hmm...

No, it's not an exact replica from the letters. Perhaps it's an examiner's attempt to reproduce some of the crucial points of examination on both the envelope and letters. If nothing else, it certainly appears to be an indication that this was pretty carefully considered and scrutinized.

For what it's worth, Z usually messed up (or purposely messed up...) dropping a silent e when adding "ing" to a word. I could only find one example similar to the misspelling of "foreget" with the word "nineth" but lots of people probably misspell forget.

Would love to see the envelope. Thanks to you and morf for all of the hard work, AK.

Well i finally got my first FOIA request from the FBI on the "State" letter...

AND THEY DID NOT SEND THE ENVELOPE!!!

URRGGGHHH!

All I got is what Morf has already posted, the state page and the knife page.

Yes I requested it.

Later I did send a follow up request were I mentioned the specific document number of the envelope. So hopefully I will get it soon as part of that request. I still have requests pending for the 78 tape letter, the 69 San Jose, the 71 April woods and the 81 Atlanta, all have specific requests for the envelopes.

Glad to see you finally got the stuff. Too bad they didnt give you anything new. I am hoping to get responses to my latest requests in the next couple weeks.

Theforeigner wrote:

Quote :

I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.

FWIW for you other forum members;
My x-husband has now used som time to studie the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter, and his opinion is that the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter indeed was written by the Zodiac killer.
He says that he has no doubt whatsoever that it was created by the Zodiac killer.

I personaly belive that my x-husbands view and opinion is both professional and unbiased.

TF, I'd love to find out what exactly he found to make him feel that this letter is authentic. I have no doubt that he's unbiased in this matter, but I think he may be off his rocker

Theforeigner wrote:

Theforeigner wrote:

Quote :

I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.

FWIW for you other forum members;
My x-husband has now used som time to studie the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter, and his opinion is that the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter indeed was written by the Zodiac killer.
He says that he has no doubt whatsoever that it was created by the Zodiac killer.

I personaly belive that my x-husbands view and opinion is both professional and unbiased.

Foreigner, that is interesting. Does he have any background in writing comparsions or questioned documents? I dont think it's fair to say he is "off his rocker", but I am interested to see why he thinks that it could be Zodiac.

LOL* I'm also off my rocker( some of you already know that!) As I also feel this is a Z Letter. So look forward to hearing The F. Ex's reasons.

I will ask him to write an explanation for his opinion on this issue.
He did, of course, explain it all to me, orally, in danish, our languish, but all those details I can´t put them into words in english, but I sure will ask him to put it in writing.
It may take som time, but as soon as I get it from him I´ll post it.

But I can say this much; even though the handwriting, between the letter in question, and the other conclusive Zodiac letter handwritings, dosen´t seem to be alike, there are a LOT of significant details in the hand writings that match in his opinion.

He says that two different handwritings that, at first impression, looks like they are very different , with a train eye can be found to indeed be a match due to tiny small significant ways of leading the penn.

And he goes on say that; Just like two handwritings that , at first impression, looks like they are a perfect match,
with a trained eye can be found to indeed NOT be a match, due to that tiny small significant ways of leading the penn are TOO diffrent.

This was probaly a really bad explanation but that´s the best I could do here and now, I hope to get back with my X´s, way better, explanations soon.

morf13 wrote:

I dont think it's fair to say he is "off his rocker", but I am interested to see why he thinks that it could be Zodiac.

I think it's fair to say, as he's not a document examiner, no other document examiner has called this a match, and every other point I've brought up that shows this to likely be a fake. This isn't to say I don't want to hear his reasoning (as I did ask in my earlier post).

Also, the use of a smiley denotes a joke. I obviously am not calling the man crazy...just wrong (see what I did there? lol)

Mr. Bungle - You can reach your own opinion, but the FBI expert did include these Fairfield letters in the "PROBABLY" all by the same hand group.

Bottom line is this, for me: Robert Graysmith dismisses the Fairfield letters as fake, without telling us why (maybe Allen was placed somewhere other than Fairfield on those dates), but the FBI handwriting expert says that ALL the letters given to the FBI, including the Fairfield and Belli ones not written as freely, were "PROBABLY" done by "ONE WRITER".

Hmm, Robert Graysmith or the FBI handwriting expert? Who to go with here?

The evidence is split, so for me, right now, knowing that the FBI probably had information we don't, and they have the expertise, not seeing enough to think they are wrong, I tend to let their verdict tip the scales slightly in favor of it being real.

Here is the one that said "probably."

Actually, and this very interesting, this examiner notes the distortion and less free writing on the Fairfield 12/7/69 letter (Q34 and 35), but then in regards to the new document, the April 28 1970 greeting card, with "I hope you enjoy..", he concludes that in regard to "ALL" the documents in the case given to the FBI (which clearly INCLUDES FAIRFIELD) they were "PROBABLY PREPARED BY ONE WRITER".

MrBungle wrote:

morf13 wrote:

I dont think it's fair to say he is "off his rocker", but I am interested to see why he thinks that it could be Zodiac.

I think it's fair to say, as he's not a document examiner, no other document examiner has called this a match, and every other point I've brought up that shows this to likely be a fake. This isn't to say I don't want to hear his reasoning (as I did ask in my earlier post).

Also, the use of a smiley denotes a joke. I obviously am not calling the man crazy...just wrong (see what I did there? lol)

I knew it was a joke, but I do disagree with you, I dont see overwhelming evidence of it being fake. I guess we will agree to disagree. I am not sold on it being real, but I dont see alot making it fake either.

AK Wilks wrote:

Mr. Bungle - You can reach your own opinion, but the FBI expert did include these Fairfield letters in the "PROBABLY" all by the same hand group.

Bottom line is this, for me: Robert Graysmith dismisses the Fairfield letters as fake, without telling us why (maybe Allen was placed somewhere other than Fairfield on those dates), but the FBI handwriting expert says that ALL the letters given to the FBI, including the Fairfield and Belli ones not written as freely, were "PROBABLY" done by "ONE WRITER".

Hmm, Robert Graysmith or the FBI handwriting expert? Who to go with here?

The evidence is split, so for me, right now, knowing that the FBI probably had information we don't, and they have the expertise, not seeing enough to think they are wrong, I tend to let their verdict tip the scales slightly in favor of it being real.

Here is the one that said "probably."

Actually, and this very interesting, this examiner notes the distortion and less free writing on the Fairfield 12/7/69 letter (Q34 and 35), but then in regards to the new document, the April 28 1970 greeting card, with "I hope you enjoy..", he concludes that in regard to "ALL" the documents in the case given to the FBI (which clearly INCLUDES FAIRFIELD) they were "PROBABLY PREPARED BY ONE WRITER".

AK, agreed, I definitely will take the FBI over Graysmith.

The "probably" came from the FBI memo regarding the Dragon card, which I think we're all in agreement as to being a real Zodiac communication. That's the only place there's a "probably"...every other one say "may be". Using this "probably" reasoning, then all of these letters must be real, and they're certainly not. Once again, this letter was NOT confirmed by anyone outside of the FBI, much less within it. I don't give a damn what Graysmith says or doesn't say...he's a fraud. But it wasn't just Graysmith who dismissed these letters...it was EVERYONE who did! If they hadn't been generally dismissed, we wouldn't have had to wait 23 years to see them.

I understand there was no formal declaration of this, but there was also no formal declaration of them being real. "Probably" is NOT "definitely"!

We also have no idea if the memos were prepared by the same person in the FBI, so to link one memo's message to any other memo is a little irresponsible. These documents may have been examined by different personnel.

Once again, AK, if you want to keep saying "probably" obviously included Fairfield, so it's real, then you must believe every other document listed prior to the Dragon card is also real. That's the logic you're using, and it's not very logical.

MrBungle wrote:

The "probably" came from the FBI memo regarding the Dragon card, which I think we're all in agreement as to being a real Zodiac communication. That's the only place there's a "probably"...every other one say "may be". Using this "probably" reasoning, then all of these letters must be real, and they're certainly not. Once again, this letter was NOT confirmed by anyone outside of the FBI, much less within it. I don't give a damn what Graysmith says or doesn't say...he's a fraud. But it wasn't just Graysmith who dismissed these letters...it was EVERYONE who did! If they hadn't been generally dismissed, we wouldn't have had to wait 23 years to see them.

I understand there was no formal declaration of this, but there was also no formal declaration of them being real. "Probably" is NOT "definitely"!

We also have no idea if the memos were prepared by the same person in the FBI, so to link one memo's message to any other memo is a little irresponsible. These documents may have been examined by different personnel.

Once again, AK, if you want to keep saying "probably" obviously included Fairfield, so it's real, then you must believe every other document listed prior to the Dragon card is also real. That's the logic you're using, and it's not very logical.

I dont know about "probably" or "likely", but it could be the reason we waited so many years to see these letters, is that nobody ever bothered to get them and put them out there to be viewed. You say "Everyone" dismissed them. Who is everyone? And how do you know that everyone dismissed them?

The bottom line is, you are not a documents examiner, nor am I. So all we have to go on are the notes in the FBI memos. The notes are sketchy, and admittedly, not much to draw a solid conclusion from.

But you have stated your opinion, that these letters are frauds. We are stating our opinion that they may not be. On this forum, we are allowed to have opinions. And if we dont happen to agree, you wont see me sneak the last word in and then lock the thread as you will on the other forum where you are a member!

"We also have no idea if the memos were prepared by the same person in the FBI, so to link one memo's message to any other memo is a little irresponsible. These documents may have been examined by different personnel."

I can only work with what I am given. The FBI docs do not reveal the name of the handwriting expert. But he clearly mentiones the Fairfield letters, notes some distortion and says they were not written as freely, but then says that ALL letters sent to the FBI at that point in time were "probably" done by one hand.

You can take it or leave it. He has the better quality version, he has the envelopes, he knows more information than we do and he is an expert handwriting examiner. What's weird is that throughout the case the FBI was "stricter" and less willing to declare Zodiac letters real than the Cal DOJ. I can't account for the difference here. We don't know all the facts. If and when we get the envelope it may help a little.

IMO we also need to consider that the Fairfield letter ask for HELP, which we know the real Zodiac did a week later in the Belli letter. And there are other indicia of realness I have gone over. Still, the writng is odd, some of it seems different from classic Z writing, and it is pencil. There is a more juvenile tone here, a rushed off quality. Perhaps a teenage hoaxer? Or Zodiac was writing in a car and did rush this off? Or was Zodiac attempting to make police think he was young, lived in Fairfield and was into astrology?

Other forums may have mostly dismissed this, without much study IMO, and here opinion is split about 50/50. I do not have a firm view, but lean slightly toward them being real. We will continue to post these letters as we get them, most of them never before seen, give them to other sites and researchers, post them here and let everyone come to their own conclusions after debate and discussion.

Okay, I'm punching out of this conversation. I'm tired of getting the same post to an FBI memo that in no way confirms this letter as genuine when I (and others) have pointed out a pile of problems with it.

Morf, "everyone" is everyone who has had knowledge of this letter prior to you guys getting it. I've not seen one other opinion saying that they believe this is a legitimate letter outside of this message board. Perhaps saying "everyone" is a bit too vague, but I've yet to see anyone anywhere come out saying they think it's real.

"but I've yet to see anyone anywhere come out saying they think it's real."

Until a few weeks ago, nobody in the Zodiac research world had ever even SEEN this letter.

Robert Graysmith, Tom Voigt and and most of the crew at ZKF have ignored this letter or dismissed it as fake with little examination. So be it. I go by what the FBI analyst says and my own analysis. I think it may be real.

There was a research world before the internet...they were called "police". You'd think that, if there was any credibility to this (or honestly, most any of the other suspect letters) SOMEONE would have said something positive about it before Tom had it and Graysmith mentioned it. Enough people knew about the existence of the "SLA" letter even though that was debated, as well as the April '78 letter (granted, with the accusations against Toschi, that one is very understandable).

MrBungle wrote:

There was a research world before the internet...they were called "police". You'd think that, if there was any credibility to this (or honestly, most any of the other suspect letters) SOMEONE would have said something positive about it before Tom had it and Graysmith mentioned it. Enough people knew about the existence of the "SLA" letter even though that was debated, as well as the April '78 letter (granted, with the accusations against Toschi, that one is very understandable).

And that very letter (SLA)was originally thought to be a fake, wasnt it? Only later was it deemed to be legit. So you think they should have tossed it in the trash after it was originally deemed a fake? Good thing they didnt since it is considered to be a legit Z letter.

AK Wilks wrote:

"but I've yet to see anyone anywhere come out saying they think it's real."

Until a few weeks ago, nobody in the Zodiac research world had ever even SEEN this letter.

Robert Graysmith, Tom Voigt and and most of the crew at ZKF have ignored this letter or dismissed it as fake with little examination. So be it. I go by what the FBI analyst says and my own analysis. I think it may be real.

By "anyone" or "everyone", I take it to mean, the Fact checkers at ZKfacts.com have deemed it a fake. That settles it for me, lets take it down. If they say its fake, they must be right ......(thats sarcasm)

MrBungle wrote:

Okay, I'm punching out of this conversation. I'm tired of getting the same post to an FBI memo that in no way confirms this letter as genuine when I (and others) have pointed out a pile of problems with it.

Morf, "everyone" is everyone who has had knowledge of this letter prior to you guys getting it. I've not seen one other opinion saying that they believe this is a legitimate letter outside of this message board. Perhaps saying "everyone" is a bit too vague, but I've yet to see anyone anywhere come out saying they think it's real.

And again, who is "everyone" that had knowledge of it? The police? Tom V? Who are you referring to? Tom V said that he had knowledge of it years ago, and that it was once posted on his forum, and that "old timers may remember it being posted". Well I have yet to hear from one person that ever saw it on his forum. I have never seen it posted at ANY site anyplace on the net before we got it, so forgive me, but I tend to think that people didnt have the entire letter or its full contents.

You say that the FBI memo "IN NO WAY CONFIRMS THE LETTER AS GENUINE". You may be right, but the same memo you mention also doesnt rule the letter out as a fake. So if you have proof or documentation proving this letter was ruled out as a fake, please post it here. I will wait for it.

The poll here is split right down the middle - 4 say real, 4 say fake, 8 say not sure:

Is the Bleeding Knife letter from Z, or is it a hoax?
yes ,I have no doubt it is from Zodiac
25% [ 4 ]
No way that this is from Zodiac
25% [ 4 ]
I just cant decide, and will need more time and information
50% [ 8 ]

Total Votes : 16


I think Roland from www.zodiologists.com thinks it is likely real, I know Ricardo from www.mk-zodiac.com is interested in this letter and put it up on his website, long time and very respected researcher The Foreigner has said she thinks it is likley real and me and Morf are certainly interested in this letter and I lean toward it being real.

We also have the FBI reports.

Also, the purpose of this site is in part to explore some areas that other sites ignore, to allow speculation and new paths on research.

AK Wilks wrote:

The poll here is split right down the middle - 4 say real, 4 say fake, 8 say not sure:

Is the Bleeding Knife letter from Z, or is it a hoax?
yes ,I have no doubt it is from Zodiac
25% [ 4 ]
No way that this is from Zodiac
25% [ 4 ]
I just cant decide, and will need more time and information
50% [ 8 ]

Total Votes : 16


I think Roland from www.zodiologists.com thinks it is likely real, I know Ricardo from www.mk-zodiac.com is interested in this letter and out it up on his website, long time and very respected researcher The Foreigner has said she thinks it is likley real and me and Morf are certainly interested in this letter and I lean toward it being real.

We also have the FBI reports.

Also, the purpose of this site is in part to explore some areas that other sites ignore, to allow speculation and new paths on research.

I think Foreigner also said she thinks it is real. As far as I know, none of us are questioned document examiners, so can any of us say it's is legit or not? I need to see more before I say its real. But at the same time, if someone has proof its fake, by all means, show it here!

This is one of those subject matters that seems to bring out emotion. Some feel it is real, some feel it is fake. We may never know for sure, SO I think we all give each other permission to have our thoughts, and also permission to agree to disagree. geeze LE couldn't even decide on some of these things, so how are any of us...forum members...