"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER

The writer draws our attention to 38 threatened kills in this (new) 12/16/69 letter.

By the Exorcist letter of Jan. 1974 the Zodiac claims he's up to 37. Interesting.

[[[... Great stuff getting this, guys (morf/AK) ...excellent! ....]]]]

Rufus T Firefly wrote:

The writer draws our attention to 38 threatened kills in this (new) 12/16/69 letter.

By the Exorcist letter of Jan. 1974 the Zodiac claims he's up to 37. Interesting.

[[[... Great stuff getting this, guys (morf/AK) ...excellent! ....]]]]

Interesting!

Great job morph!

You did not talk -as so many do -you walked!

We do not have the envelope and that's aways helpful,but it's understandable here.

As far a Sacramento goes lots of CM/BD connections there.CM had a "safe house"(BD hid there for awhile when LE was searching for him-they had safe houses all over CA-especially LA) there. A former counselor of CM while CM was in Vacaville had a son and he was going to show me the house to me if I could get to Sacramento,but I could not make it.Drats.
He knew a man ("candyman"-an ex-con friend of CM's-I have his first name only)that lived on the outskirts of Sacramento who owned a candy business.
They visited him Dec.68 and from there 'travelled all over the N Bay'meeting friends,scoring drugs,etc.,according to Paul Watkins and Tex Watson.Watkins says the trip "to Sacramento..."was... "mid -December 1968."

He says, "I've never known exactly what Charlie was looking for during those aimless weeks we hung around Sacramento...We'd visit some of Charlie's old friends...It was as if Charlie was waitng for some kind of direction,something to happen...he seemed to draw in himself sometimes .There seemed to be something going on in his head that he couldn't share with us."
I believe this big 'change' in CM that Tex saw was CM dwelling on when to start his war,etc.To that day 1978- Watson was wondering what was on CM's mind in '68. My research found he and Bruce were planning to attack in the North Bay and start the revolution. Z did strike 12/20/68.

BD was seen in Berkeley during 'Christmas season' on Telegraph AV.Later he left for GB and did not return until April 1969.

For a short time in December '68 CM 'drove an old Studebaker to Reno.'Most of his time was spent in Sacramento and in and around the N Bay during December '68 according to Paul Watkins.
When I wrote Susan Atkins about this trip to Sacramento she affirmed it, but would not give me any details as to why they were there or where they visited,etc.Whether our questions were about Zodiac or even certain ventures she would not talk.I was amazed as she had no reason for this atitude.She was in for life.Of course,she hoped to get out, but that was remote.

morf13 wrote:

Wonder what "go for the government life" means? Moving due to a govt job? Going on welfare? Joining the service? Sounds a bit like an ADIOS to the police.

OR perhaps underground with a witness protection type situation due to being an informer against some person, group, or agency???

Looking at every word, verbiage and for clews. Trying to keep an open mind, is it real is it fake. This is what needs to be looked at with a fine tooth comb to try our
best to figure out. Not fair to give it a quick glance and say fake.............
I like what Rufus found, I did not see that until he pointed it out.
I'm also thinking 4PI, 4 Z's............as I see four "little" Z crossmarks around the large Z. Sandy pointed this out to me as something she once saw.
Mannnn interesting. And if it is a fake, is someone trying to tell us something?? Lot's of angles to think about.

Check out my lates two posts on this thread:


https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/unconfirmed-zodiac-letters-mailings-general-discussion-f6/bleeding-knife-of-zodiac-letter-t456-15.htm

Kudos Morf !!!!

My first impression was that there was no way z wrote this..........but........I dunno.
There is so much variation in z writing anyways.
A few of the things I have on the "not z" side.
The "t's" all lean the wrong way.
No "Th" connection.
I can hardly see the dots on most of the "i's" and look at the on in zodiac it is on the wrong side.....z made big well defined dots mostly and almost always dotted the next letter in line......ie....when he wrote zodiac he always (I think) dotted the a.
And the slant of the letters is wrong........but here is the kicker and part of the reason I think it could be genuine z .....
The "could be z" side.
....in the sentence "I will kill more people than you cops can count........etc...........the familar z slant shows up right in the middle of the word "people"...........look at the difference in the first p and the second p........the slant IMO is there right on thru "ple than you cops" and then it goes away again.
Also the "p" in Napa.....several of the "f's"............the middle "ha" at the bottom of the page..........the slant is back.
And
"I just want to tell you".............wasnt z always saying that or words to that effect?
I just noticed that the dot in "times" is in the correct place for z.

Just my two cents...........very exciting in any case and BTW I just posted this on DK's MB giving zodiackillersite and Morf the credit you are due........good job

Excellent work by The Foreigner:

Theforeigner wrote:

morf13 wrote:

AK Wilks wrote:

The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z's real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.

Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years.

Does anyone know when the info that Zodiac wrote "by knife" on the car door sep 27, 1969, was first released to the public?


In this picture to the right, you can see that LE has concealed the writing "by knife".

Additional reseach on this matter:

morf13 wrote:

Finally, here it is, a suspected letter from Zodiac..."THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE"


The FBI did not give me any additional info about this letter, no facts, no dates, nothing.

Morf according to this Chris Yarbrough info the;


"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" and "THE BLEEDING KNIFE" is one and the same letter page 1 and page 2.
Sent Dec 16, 1969.
It seems to me that you have posted thise "two letters" as if they are two different letters, but according to the Chris Yarbrough info,
they are not.


http://zodiackillertruth.com/bknife.htm

Bleeding Knife

Below is a transcription of a letter written by the Zodiac killer. Grammatical and spelling errors are included as written.

Date: Postmarked December 16, 1969

Comments: Sent to San Francisco Examiner. Postmarked Fairfield, CA.


A copy or transcription of this letter in its entirety is unavailable to the public. Here is what we do know about this missive:

The letter had two pages. The first page began:

"This is the Zodiac speaking I just want to tell you this state is in trouble"
The letter contained the following phrases (spelling):

for the goverment
and

don't foreget
The second page contained a drawing of a knife and the words:

"The Bleeding Knife of Zodiac"
Investigators from the F.B.I. concluded in a memo that this letter "may contain some distortion" and was "not written as freely" as other "threatening letters." The memo goes on to say that characteristics indicate this letter "may have been prepared by writer other threatening letters this matter."

AK Wilks wrote:

"go for the government life"

I read that to mean TRY TO TAKE THE LIVES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES - Cops, military, politicians, bureacrats.

He says "this STATE is in trouble." Then he threatens COPS in FAIRFIELD.

I think he is threatening "GOVERNMENT LIFE" - the lifes of government workers.

That's how I read it as well.

Yes page one is "state is in trouble" and page two is "bleeding knife". That is made clear by the FBI memo below. I assume Morf knew that but posted them as he did so that we might have seperate discussions on them.



You can see they sent Morf the wrong envelope, seen below. They sent him the one that had the CANCER FLT 555. I have already requested the 12/16/69 Fairfield envelope, hopefully I will get it.

Is this letter real or fake? I don't know.

The FBI handwriting expert says that while they contain some "distortion" and were not written as "freely" as some others, it was determined they DID have similar characteristics indicating that they "may have" been written by the Zodiac.

They have never been seen by the public before. They contain a threat to kill 9 people in Sacramento. This letter was written 12/16/69. The next possible Zodiac murder was in March 1970 in Sacramento - Nurse Judith Hakari. Followed by the probable Zodiac murder of Nancy Bennallack in Sacramento in October 1970. At the time this letter was written, there was no Zodaic connection to Sacramento - yet two of the next probable Zodiac murders were in Sacramento. If this letter was from a "hoaxer", how did he know where the Zodiac was going to kill?

Also, both this 12/16/69 Fairfield letter and the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter make threats against police - and the confirmed Zodiac letter of 4/20/70 said there was more glory in killing a "cop than a cid".

Soooo if he is threatening government symbols...ie) people...then in essence
he is threatening to go "postal". That usually indicates a person with a big
grudge or grievance towards a particular group.

I mean if the Z wanted to just be a serial killer...he didn't have to threaten government and
LE. It does appear on the surface that his primary motivation is terrorism and I
am still trying to figure out what his secondary motivation is...I think it depends on whether or not
he actually had a mental illness and/or just a run of the mill nasty nature criminal sort. The text does seem to almost be metered spacing compared to the more hurried style of
others letter with text. Do we know if this was done with ball point or felt tip?

I think a rather large clue as to the letters' authenticity is contained in the QDE statement, under the "Results of examination"...Obviously, anything like this coming in at the time would need to be thoroughly examined. However...

Why mention killing cops in Fairlfield in 2 letter weeks apart? Anyone know of some particular incident with this Fairfield in say the recent history before the letters? Something reported that got his attention?

I wonder how many of these letters they got during these crimes from wackos just for curiosity sake? Anyone got a guess? Did LE ever just throw away the letters back then when they thought they are crackpots without processing??

rand wrote:

AK Wilks wrote:

"go for the government life"

I read that to mean TRY TO TAKE THE LIVES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES - Cops, military, politicians, bureacrats.

He says "this STATE is in trouble." Then he threatens COPS in FAIRFIELD.

I think he is threatening "GOVERNMENT LIFE" - the lifes of government workers.

That's how I read it as well.

I was in a bit of a hurry today, so I did put them in 2 separate topics...sorry

This is just... wow! Great job!

Sorry if this has already been said, but the big Z symbol, surrounded with four smaller ones kind of looks like a planet with four smaller moons. So I just did a google search and found that Jupiter has four moons and a ring around the middle. So then I did a quick search on the meanings of Jupiter and found these:

Quote :

The god Jupiter was often depicted in the center of the Zodiac in ancient Greece and Rome, as the wise sage that’s a guide to a universal order.

and

Quote :

Jupiter guides us to a mission greater than ourselves; its sign and house position are clues to following that path.

Thought that might be some food for thought.


EDIT:

Also, from Wikipedia, therre is this:

Quote :

n Roman mythology, Jupiter or Jove was the king of the gods, and the god of sky and thunder. He is the equivalent of Zeus AKA. West, in the Greek pantheon. He was called Iuppiter (or Diespiter) Optimus Maximus ("Father God the Best and Greatest") As the patron deity of ancient Rome, he ruled over laws and social order.

Yeah, this is beyond great to finally get the letter. Thanks Morf and Ak for the effort.

Fantastic job Morph and AK getting these two letters out , great stuff. I shall have a better look at them later (just up over here).

Interesting that he writes 'you better print', echoes of telling the Chronicle that 'Must print this part in paper and be sure to print' on the bomb letter. I think it looks good as a possible Z comm and for it not to be ruled out means it has potential. He also begins it with, This is the Zodiac Speaking, which most of his official letters started with (Ten of them), the red phantom, exorcist etc did not.

Edit:Also look at the use of 'I will' like the Belli letter. A gap between the first line and what he wants to say just like the Phillips letter/ John's letter/ Mikado letter and also the Belli letter begins Dear Melvin then a line between till he begins This is. If it's a hoaxer then he's seen the actual letters I think.

Theforeigner wrote:

.... Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years ......

Excellent points made here by TF. I agree that the "By knife" writing is similar. And I too cannot find any news reports in 1969 that would have allowed the 12/69 writer to have seen an image of the car door & its writing in order to copy it closely. So to me, at this stage, this appears a significant observation... well done TF.

Very good points everybody! I am sure that stories of Bryan & Hartnell were all over the papers after the Z attack at Berryessa, and the fact they were stabbed was in the papers if I am not mistaken, certainly by the time the BLEEDING KNIFE letter was written, it seems everyone would have known Z stabbed them, so although I think that it could be a real Z letter, the fact he mentions a knife isnt that important, even IF the car door "by knife" wasnt shared with the public.

MORF - AND OTHERS -

What we are saying is that the writing of "knife" on this letter seems almost an exact match to the way "knife" was written on the Lake Berryessa car door.

AK Wilks wrote:

Excellent work by The Foreigner:


The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z's real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.

Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years.

Does anyone know when the info that Zodiac wrote "by knife" on the car door sep 27, 1969, was first released to the public?


In this picture to the right, you can see that LE has concealed the writing "by knife".



Additional reseach on this matter:


[/quote]

morf13 wrote:

Very good points everybody! I am sure that stories of Bryan & Hartnell were all over the papers after the Z attack at Berryessa, and the fact they were stabbed was in the papers if I am not mistaken, certainly by the time the BLEEDING KNIFE letter was written, it seems everyone would have known Z stabbed them, so although I think that it could be a real Z letter, the fact he mentions a knife isnt that important, even IF the car door "by knife" wasnt shared with the public.

Morf and tahoe too (in response to one of your posts about this issue), it is not using the word "knife" that is important here, it is the WAY it was written that indicate that it was the real Zodiac.
The car door "By knife" is written in a pretty significant way, and the word "knife" in "the Bleeding knife" letter is written in the very same significant style, THAT is what makes a connection between the car door writing and "the Bleeding knife" letter.

And as I wrote before; if the car door "by knife" handwriting had not been published to the public by Dec 16, 1969, how could the writer of the bleeding knife letter write the word "knife" in the very same handwriting style as Zodiac did on the car door, unless he was the very same man who wrote on the car door Sep 27, 1969??

In other terms; how would a hoax know how to copy the actual handwriting of the car door word "knife", when the writing had not been made public?

Se what I mean?


Here check out how VERY simelar the two words "Knife" is, and other letters and numbers too IMO: